Mardi Gras Indians
I learn something new about this city everyday now I am ready for the explanation. I recently found out that the Mardi Gras Indians are African American and for the most part not really American Indians at all. Right off the bat, I find this strange I mean, do African Americans not have enough culture of their own to draw from? Why not dress in African tribal costumes and celebrate the countries, tribes and traditions of their own past? I am freely willing to admit that I do not know much about the Mardi Gras Indians and am more than willing to learn so far that I am just going on what I have heard and picked up along the way from google.
It seems they are honoring their Indian brothers and sisters who aided in their escape from slavery. This sounds wonderful and great, one culture honoring and celebrating the culture of another in turn the both live longer. With time, this has evolved into its own little sub culture of African-Native-Americans.
Here is where I start to become naturally and uncontrollably upset, the names they give their tribes. Such as Seminole, Young Navaho and Wild Apache. I myself am part Sioux, Cherokee and Cherakawa. I am proud of my history and have a certain natural instinct toward its protection. This brings me to why my first reaction to learning about these “Indians” is to be a bit angry. I am not trying to say that we should not celebrate the Native-Americans what I am saying is that we should not claim to be Native-Americans if we are not actually Native-Americans. In addition, to give yourself the name of a tribe with which you do not actually have any connection, for some reason just makes me very upset. Why should they call themselves by tribe names they are not a part of?
This is just one of the many strange and interesting things that I have encountered since moving to New Orleans. As I said earlier, I am ready and willing to learn more on this subject so bring it on.
I don’t know much about the history of the Mardi Gras Indians, but I do know that just about everyone in the state of Louisiana (well, those whose families have been there for at least 100 years) have some Native American in them. I personally have a smidgen of Choctaw. Intermarriage and liaisons between slaves and Native Americans was common, as it was between the French and the Native Americans (actually, the French and anything that moved, but that’s another story!) The other whites that moved in later continued the pattern with the descendents of the earlier relationships.
Anyway – my point is that it is quite possible, highly probable in fact, that the African American “Indians” actually do have Native American blood. They probably don’t what tribe specifically, but it is there.
As for the “tribe” names, they obviously took the most famous tribes – Apache, Navaho, Sioux. Those are also the tribes that were most defiant to the genocidcal attacks of the U.S. in the late 19th century – hmmm. This is interesting – I need to look into this further.
I guess my point is the “Indians” more than likely have some Native American blood, even though it’s probbaly not of the “tribe” they are in. They mean no harm in the names they chose – they are honoring the Native Americans. Mardi Gras is like a big play – it’s a drama, a pageant. The Indians are just another part of the cast and should not be seen, IMHO, as an attempt to further exploit the Native American culture. :-)
To learn more about the Mardi Gras Indians, you should visit the Backstreet Cultural Museum in the Treme neighborhood, 1116 St. Claude Avenue (they are open). Mardi Gras Indian tribes do not (as far as I remember) have tribe names after existing or historical Tribes. Some of the more famous ones include the Yellow Pocahontas, The Guardians of the Flame, the Fi Yi Yi, The Wild Magnolias, and the Golden Eagles. There is a great photographic book put out by Michael P. Smith entitled “Mardi Gras Indians” with an incredible collection of his photographic work and a pretty good history of their origins and how they parade today. They are a critical element of the culture of New Orleans and I hope that some of the tribes are still in town and will parade on Mardi Gras Day and St. Joe’s night.
They are dressing up as Indians. We used to costume all the time. I remember the whole family dressing as clowns and another time as dragons. I’m neither a clown or a dragon.
Oh good — a new wrinkle on the race issue here at Metroblogging. We are all free people of color down here.
Wow, how about doing homework on your own time?
I am not all that interested in your cultural learning curve.
Oh boy. Wow.
Wait till you see Zulu and see black folks and white folks in black face.
You also should stay away from Alla on the Westbank and its giant coon-ass float. You may be confused as to the meaning and get upset.
Please don’t post your opinions about things you know nothing about. Do a little research first. I also noticed on your livejournal you called the Indians’ costumes “aweful.” I’m not sure if you mean “awesome” or “awful” but I do hope its the former. Attitudes like yours are not what New Orleans needs as it tries to rebuild.
Please please please be a little more open to New Orleans’ culture. You’ll find alot of things, especially pertaining race, a bit different in New Orleans than the rest of the country.
I too hope that the some of the Mardi Gras Indian tribes survived the storm. I don’t have a good feeling though.
Did you move here from Mars?
You might want to read this. Mardi Gras Indians @ Answers.com. One thing to remember about New Orleans and Louisiana in general it is an old world place. Unlike many cities in the States, New Orleans has been around a long time and has some great old traditions.
I understand the tradition actually came from mimicing the natives who traveled in Wild West shows at the turn of the last century. There were to some extent a cultural abomination by our current standards. However, I would think you might be hnored that a people who’s own culture was pratically eradicated (like that of the native americans they mimiced) found some reason to copy that of their fellow travlers under the bootheel of American determinism.
Or not.
Where are you from again?
(P.S.–The manager of the Sioux drumming group I visited with at the Fargo ND (my current home) Katrina Relief “Mardi Gras” event was fascinated that these guys had picked up on the costumes of the guys in the Wild West shows, and turned it into something beautiful. But since he merely lives on a reservation in the freezing Dakotas, perhaps he’s not in touch with the current thinking on these subjects).
I will ignore the knee jerk attitude and cut straight to the news. The Wild MAgnolias (an uptown Tribe) returned over a week ago. Big Chief Bo Dollis had a welcome home party at Rock N Bowl. I have no news yet of the Golden Eagles, Creole Wild West, or others. By the way, none of the Indians have ever used actual tribe names (i.e. Navajo, Sioux, etc), and they have a closer relationship on both the local and national levels with the native american communities than any other ethnic group I am aware of.
The Indians are one of the most valuable and unique subcultures of New Orleans. Just knowing the Magnolias are back makes this Twilight Zone seem more like home.
Great to hear that the Wild Magnolias are back in town, the city needs traditions like them to stay unique. I picked up their album (Life is a Carnival), and read up on the different tribes. Interesting stuff, I was worried that they were swept away with Katrina. While we’re on the subject, wasn’t there a beef between some of the Indians and the police a while back? Hopefully bygones will be bygones.
Anyway, to the original poster – N’Orleans ain’t Berkley Darl’n, we got those Zulu peeps in blackface, a Mayor who uses terms like ‘Chocolate City’ and says “make sure that New Orleans is not overrun by Mexican workers”, and a nearby Chinese-Cajun cowboy sheriff who used to question young black men in “rinky dink cars” and organize strike teams aginst nutria rats. In other words political correctness isn’t too trendy here.
I don’t think she means to be racist, I think when you move somewhere new, especially a city that is as different and diverse as New Orleans, it takes some getting used to. In a lot of other cities in the United States the a lot of the parades would appear very strange. The Krew De Jew the african indians, the zulus, alla, even some of the non-racially related floats costumes resemble klan costumes to people unfamiliar.
As far as posting without doing research? Maybe she’s just trying to learn from people who know. I see nothing wrong with posting a question, staying open about it and learning from others. That’s how you improve as a person, people shouldn’t try and stifle creative thought or learning. This is learning.
I understand everyone is under a lot of pressure, but there’s no reason to freak out on a girl who’s trying her best to assimilate to a very strange culture.
Anyway, that’s my opinion at least.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that most of the Mardi Gras Indians come from the poorest neighborhoods in New Orleans, and yet they spend hundreds, if not thousands, of their own dollars on their costumes so they can be Indians for a day. I find it interesting that the original poster believes this is somehow exploitative. I also find it interesting that she apparently cannot discern the difference between politics and fun.
I find it interesting that you are all preaching tolerance to me yet I got 12 comments that are picking me apart about a simple opinion. On top of that, I feely said it was uneducated and was looking to you all for local information and helpful pointers toward more information sources. Thanks a lot for all that help; you sure know how to make a new girl feel welcome. I went to an Indian web site and just for the record there are tribes that use actual Native-American tribe names. I would have never guessed that you were all such inconsiderate assholes, I ask a few and everyone is jumping down my throat about it well trust me I have learned my lesson. Whenever I need intelligent, helpful advice, I will look somewhere else.
http://www.mardigrasdigest.com/Sec_mgind/indian_mainpg.htm
Do your own homework,
Seminole, Osceola, Apache, Navaho, Cheyenne,
As someone pointed out in an earlier comment here, this blog is not the best forum for you to work out your cultural education issues – especially when your posts are consistently rife with misspellings and grammatical errors, which bring down the quality of what is otherwise one of the best written Metroblogs out there.
Do yourself and the other NO Metbloggers here a favor and limit posts like this to your own blog – and maybe work on your drafts a little more before posting things here.
I’d like to know what the local Native American tribe’s think about these black-Afro’s dressing up and playing Indian. The local (REAL) tribes would be the Bayou Lafourche, Grand Caillou/Dulac and Isle de Jean Charles Bands of the Biloxi-Chitimacha (BCCM) as well as the Pointe-au-Chien Indian Tribe (PACIT) located in Terrebonne and Lafourche Parishes. I don’t think these Mardi-Gras wannabe “black-Indian’s” even have a clue. I think they are exploiting the real native tribe’s by stereotyping them and feigning ties to indigenous America. They don’t! They should embrace their own African culture & motherland. I think they’re dissing it.
Jay, I understand your point but, a blog is a blog and although she may have misspellings and grammer issues she does write about new orleans. The post below hers by Richard, although written EXTREMELY well is completely unrelated to New Orleans. If I were going to have to judge between substance or flash I would have to choose substance. I don’t know why we have to judge for either since it’s not our job.
Also, this article has generated 18 posts now, maybe that says something in itself.
Rayna – I hope you don’t think I was picking you apart. I don’t know that much about the tribes either, but as a historian, I find them fascinating – the intersections of race and culture in Louisiana are always interesting.
I agree there are several comments to your post that are way out of line. I think it’s interesting that it is not the other “official” New Orleans metrobloggers that are being rude; it’s outsiders. I hope you do not let this one bad expereince color your view of New Orleanians et al. :-)
A.
Leslie -they aren’t wannabe “black-indians.” While the costumes and some of the chants may be influenced by Native Americans, much of the ritual is very Carribean, and thus African. In fact, the colorful costumes owe as much to the Carribean black communities that sprung up in New Orleans as Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show. And of course, in the end it’s one of those quirky cultural-hybrids that’s uniquely New Orleans.
Long post, so beware.
Leslie – I have to ask what you know about Louisiana’s racial composition. Very few people in Louisiana of any complexion have to “feign” ties to indigenous peoples. There is a very well-documented connection between the indigenous peoples of LA – Creeks, Choctaw, etc. – and the slave communities. After the revolution in Santo Domingo (now Haiti) that connection only increased. In case you are not aware, there are “Indians” in Mexico and the Caribbean, as well as in South America – all of which have blended into Louisiana at some level.
I personally am as white as snow, but have indigenous blood on one side, as does my husband who favors his Irish ancestors more than anything. I don’t purport that I am a member of a recognized tribe, nor do I have any intention of ever doing so. The liaison that gave me that smidgen of Choctaw was 150 years ago at least, but it /did/ happen. Is my family history not a “legitimate” tie? Is there a test I have to pass to have “legitimate” interests in indigenous peoples, or any people other than my own? I am not black – does that mean I can not research civil rights activism and write a book about it? Is that exploitation? I don’t think so.
I think your real beef is shown in your last sentence – “They should embrace their own African culture & motherland. I think they’re dissing it.” I think you are upset that they are not wearing dashikis and banging drums. If you think they have to “feign” ties to Native Americans, the ties to Africa are even more tenuous. The overwhelming majority of African Americans have absolutely no clue what area of Africa, much less which ethnic group, their ancestors called home. Legal importation of slaves stopped in 1807 – there was further importation through illegal channels (from the Caribbean primarily) but the the African American population was “set” by 1820. That’s almost 200 years ago. Many of the relationships between Native Americans and African Americans happened after that. Which ties are closer chronologically? Those with Native Americans, not Africa.
It was not until the early 20th century and the advent of Garveyism that African Americans began to look towards Africa, and not America, for cultural and historical ties. Before that, African Americans made concerted efforts to NOT be linked to Africa – they saw Africans as savages, pagans, something to be overcome, not embraced. That rejection of Africa and Africanism continued until the 1940s. Slowly, African Americans began to link their struggle for civil rights with the anti-colonial struggles of Africans, culminating in the emergence of Afrocentrism which manifested itself in the wearing of dashikis, tribal dancing, drumming, et cetera.
I am not in any way attempting to denigrate the cultural affinity some African Americans have developed for the continent of Africa. I have several friends who make annual trips to Ghana even though they are more closely linked to north Florida than the west coast of Africa. But I will say that it is a little condescending and presumptuous of someone to take others to task for not embracing the “correct” culture in the “correct” way. I think that is a personal decision. If the African American members of the tribes choose to glorify their affiliation and/or affinity for Native American ancestry, real or perceived, I think that is their decision to make. It most certainly is not your place, Leslie, nor anyone else’s, to judge them for that decision.
Interesting aside, I have read several articles and books recently that argue that most African Americans have relatively little definitively “African” blood. The predominant genetic markers are now those of Caucasian and (gasp) Native American populations. Life is weird, ‘huh?
I think what is lost in this whole discussion is the history of the “tribes” and the intentions and motivations of their members. Some would argue that theoretically racism is not linked to intention; I disagree to a certain extent. I think that if the intent of the “tribes” is to honor the proud heritage of the Native Americans, than their actions are not definitively racist. The younger tribes arguably are not honoring Native American culture as much as getting in on something cool and fun, but the older tribes certainly had a different set of motivations and intentions.
As for motivations and intentions, I do not mean to sound condescending and presumptuous, which my husband says I do. *blush* So, sorry if that’s true. I got into lecture mode and had trouble reeling myself back in! :-P
[relinguishing soap box . . . . . now.]
A.
The Carribbean link is very interesting, Revamp. DO you know of any books or sites about the tribes that might help all of us out? :-)
A.
Some of you may have seen the program from the PBS Series on Anthropology, Faces of Culture, that dealt specifically with the “Mardi Gras Indians”. As with the other programs in the series, it was done in a documentary style, and with a non-judgemental perspective. From this episode of Faces of Culture, it appears that the Black Indians have a proud connection to family and this tradition of participating in the celebrations. The program gives no hint that these Black Indians are in any way trying to make fun of other Indians.
Peace and Harmony
Just another bit of info
http://thorpe.ou.edu/OILS/blood.html
It does actually matter if you have Indian blood and most of the time how much Indian blood you have. In order to be included as part of a certain tribe in many cases you need as much as 1/4 of that tribes blood. At the very least, you need to be able to actually trace your heritage to a certain tribe.
Sorry about the spelling and grammar, on mars we do not bother with that type of thing.
Ann! That is some righteous teaching you laid down. Thank you!
Rayna:
What does a requirement for bureaucratic purposes have to do with cultural affiliation? Do you not understand what Ann is saying?
Is it wrong that I celebrate St. Patrick’s Day even though the only Irish in my blood comes from a single great great grandfather?
Ryana – the Mardi Gras Indians are not trying to “claim” membership in a tribe officially recognized by the U.S. government. They are using the word “tribe” loosely – as in this definition form m-w.com: 1 a : a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers as well as this one: 2 : a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest. The members probably do have some “Native American” or other Ameriasian blood, but that is not the point of their organizations and activities. They began parading as “Indians” to honor their earliest allies, the Native Americans of the Gulf Coast region, as well as to further social and political goals within their own community. They are not trying to usurp or exploit Native American culture, nor do reasonable people believe that the Mardi Gras Indians are in any way affiliated with or representative of the Cheyenne, Choctaw, or any other tribe.
Much like Terry, I celebrate St. Patrick’s Day, but have 1, maybe 2, Irish ancestors that date to the mid-1800s at the latest. Can, or should, I apply for Irish citzenship based on that? Hell no – but I /am/ of Irish descent, even if it is 12th degree.
I have an interesting question for you. There is a Native American site near the Mississippi up near St. Louis called Cahokia. I’m sure you’ve heard of it. The tribe that built Cahokia and its affiliated mound structures merged with other groups hundreds of years ago. There is currently a group of Native American dancers that perform there during the annual “Pow Wow.” Are the dancers wrong for doing that? They are not part of the Cahokia tribe. There is no Cahokia tribe, but they, the dancers, claim Cahokia as their heritage. Similarly, the Chickasaws (I think it’s the Chickasaws, it may be a band of Choctaws) here in Memphis claim Chucalissa as theirs when the last human occupation was 500 years ago and there is little to no evidence, as I understand it, that the site was ever occupied by a precursor of the modern Chickasaw (or Choctaw) tribe. Can, or should, the tribe claim something that is demonstratively not theirs?
My point is this: culutral identity and affiliation is a man-made construct.
I agree with ann and let me say as well i’m glad we’ve given up the mud-slinging. I’m scotch-irish (if you cant tell by the name) what am i really? An American who identifies with a lot of different aspects of my heritage, america’s heritage that dosen’t relate to me and world heritage. I think we all own america’s culture and heritage. I think paying homage, or looking at it is perfectly normal. If people identify with a culture, and attempt to emulate or pay homage to them, it think that’s great.
Besides, it’s mardi gras.
Is it wrong to wear green, drink green colored beer and sing drinking songs in a local bar, no I agree with you on that. But is it maybe a little in the grey area to give yourself an Irish Gaelic name and start making up your own sacred Irish dances. If I were Irish I just might be a little upset about that, and that is all I have been trying to say.
O, I give up!
Get your hand’s on John D. Folse’s The Encyclopedia of Cajun and Creole Cuisine.
I look in the mirror, some times I wonder who the indian looking back is?
Let’s face it! You walk down the street, “You’re a D’Aigle aren’t you?!”
As for Thibodaux, get your hand on a Thibodaux site and look
through the old pictures see if see yourself looking back.
So, how do you make smoke singals?
For any one offended by the term indian here, you guys have yet
to prove that ya’ll were the first here.
When Christopher Columbus discover India, us, he assumed we were
indians so any one born in America is an indian totally related
to the Indians of the Indian continent.
We are all same.
plthhhhhh……..
Laurie
I’m with Laurie
“is it maybe a little in the grey area to give yourself an Irish Gaelic name and start making up your own sacred Irish dances. If I were Irish I just might be a little upset about that, and that is all I have been trying to say.”
True – but the Mardi Gras Indians are not doing that. That’s the point others have been trying to make. :-)
I think this whole discussion got off track from the beginning, we all identify with different cultures for different reasons. When I first heard about the Mardi Gras Indians, I was a little upset at what I had heard and to be honest, this string of comments has not really helped that feeling. However, I picked up Mardi Gras Indians by Michael Smith per Laureen’s recommendation and will figure it out for myself. Thank you to Ann and Scott for your considerate and informative feedback.
“They are dressing up as Indians. We used to costume all the time. I remember the whole family dressing as clowns and another time as dragons. I’m neither a clown or a dragon.”
Plain and simply put.
it’s mardi gras dammit. they’re MARDI GRAS INDIANS. no one is ever going to mistake them for actual native americans. get a grip.
Rayna anytime you say anything about blacks people will call you a racism other races are not supposed to discuse the blacks race unless your black and that is racism. JUst proves another point. And the other thing is stop say AFRICAN AMERICANs your either Americans or not. you dont here other races saying that. If you want to be called africans then so be it but not african americans. you people are trying to push your race in front of all others and that is racism.
What’s with all of these new bloggers and thier crappy posts? Quality has gone downhill with this kind of inconsistency.
Richard, perhaps you can start a creative writing course to breed new nola metrobloggers? We could use more talent like yours these days!
Ryana – anytime you need anyone to pontificate on anything, I’m your gal! :-)
A.
Scott, you point out Richard’s post as unrelated to New Orleans. You may want to check the links in his post. You obviously didn’t get it.
Rayna, I’m going to try to put this as tactfully as possible. Please don’t take it as a personal attack, because it is not.
This is the New Orleans Metblog. You may want to familiarize yourself with an issue before posting about it. I’m not from New Orleans, nor do I live there, but it is a very special place to me. Personally, I come here to read about New Orleans and the culture from people that already know about it. It’s great to have a newcomer’s perspective as long as that newcomer is well-informed on the issue about which he/she is posting.
P.S. I find misspellings and grammar mistakes irritating in blogs regardless of the author.
In Ryana’s defense, Breny, in her original post she said she only had the info she had gleaned from google. She was ASKING for information from “locals” while expressing her initial, visceral reaction.
“I am freely willing to admit that I do not know much about the Mardi Gras Indians and am more than willing to learn . . . This brings me to why my first reaction to learning about these “Indians” is to be a bit angry. . . . I am ready and willing to learn more on this subject so bring it on.”
New Orleans is obviously special to all who visit and post to this site. I think everyone needs to get off their high horses, take a step back and a deep breath. She was asking a question. Y’all jumped her shit in teh worst way and then try to maek her feel bad because she isn’t the best typist. I can’t count teh number of times I mistype “the” (and yes, I left those in deliberately).
For my part, and don’t take this as a personal attack, Breny, because it’s not, I find pretentiousness and lack of “home training” irritating, period.
I wrote a draft post last night chiding Rayna for her haste in posting about something she didn’t know anything about. But I decided not to post it because it seemed harsh. I see others did not have my reluctance, and I guess I wish I’d put in my 2 cents.
See, the thing is, what Rayna could have posted was that she had just learned about something that seemed odd to her – maybe even said WHY it seemed odd — and asked if people who knew about it could give her more info.
But instead what she posted was that she had just learned about something that seemed odd to her, and it made her “UNATURALLY AND UNCONTROLLABLY UPSET” and “ANGRY”. And she gives advice to those people who carry on this tradition about what they should really be doing instead.
I think perhaps her hasty jump to judgement and her supposition that SHE knows BETTER than they do was what set some folks off here.
Rayna says:
“When I first heard about the Mardi Gras Indians, I was a little upset at what I had heard and to be honest, this string of comments has not really helped that feeling.”
Well, Rayna, what it SHOULD help you with is a sense of humility and a sense that perhaps you need to wait a little bit and learn things before you judge people based on a hasty view of the surface.
Be glad that you learned something about this culture with a minimum of flaming, and in the comfort of your own computer desk. Take the lesson as a good one and carry it with you in life. You are likely to encounter other cultures that you don’t understand, and being able to observe quietly and gather information before opening your mouth to opine will do you well.
G. – I think you should be honest and note that you added the capitalization. I also think that perhaps you, as well as others, are reading way too much into this. She asked for information, politely even. Her first sentence; “I learn something new about this city everyday now I am ready for the explanation. ” As a newcomer, she professed her ignorance and ASKED for information. She was greeted (with the exception of me, of course, :-P and a few others) with flames. She ASKED. Rather than answers, she was given insults and assumptions about her intentions and her typing (how petty. really, people. I’m all for grammar but come on it’s the internet. If you can tell it’s a typo, let it go.) You, G., even /waited/ to post and STILL insulted her and questioned her motivations.
I think all Ryana has gotten out of this is singed eyebrows and an understandable wariness towards anyone who comments to her posts.
Anna, The bottom line seems to be this: Mardi Gras celebrate’s her melting-pot culture, not their roots! MELTING POT means a dilution of their roots. Many indigenous people’s have NOT assimilated and find this very derogarory. To have roots is to honor it, not disrespect it. Some idiot dress up as a clown to impersonate YOU, how would you feel? Because being a clown is not the real you or is it? This is why so many disagree with the “black mardi gras Indians”. Yes, this melting-pot culture is a reality, but most of you have this superiority mentality going on by supporting and getting a big kick out of playing dress-up Indian. And another question, why don’t Native American’s play dress-up and paint their faces as black-faced minstrel’s if they have a little bit of black in them? Answer: Why should they? They don’t want to direspect the real black people, the black experience, besides everyone knows they would immediately cry “racism”. Am I not correct? The Indian’s, Asian’s or whites would never get away playing dress-up African.
Leslie-
“The Indian’s, Asian’s or whites would never get away playing dress-up African.”
Really?????? You should wake up early on Feb 28th and head over to Lee Circle, you’re in for a real treat!
The 1978 Les Blank documentary “Always for Pleasure” has a section in it about the Mardi Gras Indian tribes. My observation was that the individuals involved were VERY serious about projecting pride and strength, through the intricate hand sewn costumes they laboriously crafted, and the unity of their communities. My take on it was that they were emulating the strength of the First Nation communities they respected in a hybrid way (it’s New Orleans after all, a place where many cultures have meshed and created distinctive art forms). Add music and you have a neighborhood parade.
Carnival/Mardi Gras has frequently been a spark for unique and creative community clubs world wide, especially in lower income areas, that can’t afford to be affiliated with the high cost krewes or samba schools. Whether it’s “The Children of Gandhi” samba school in Salvador Bahia Brazil or the Indian tribes in New Orleans, they’ve created something unique, it’s serious business and they are coming from a place of respect.
Thanks
Drury
I don’t know about Rayna, but my understanding of the Mardi Gras Indians increased dramatically as a result of this post / comment series… and wasn’t “knowledge-share” the point of her initial entry?
I suspect she learned far more than she wanted, though, about large public blogs. Call it a bit of lagniappe, maybe…
Leslie – you missed the point and are conflating multiple issues. Have you read the history of the tribes, posted here and on linked sites? If so, how could you possibly believe that the tribes mean disrespect? Drury makes an excellent point about the time and care taken with the costuming. They were/are showing respect, through a creative, unique tradition, not “disresepcting the Native American experience” by “playing dress-up Indian.” Furthermore, the experience of the Mardi Gras Inidans is in no way related to the black-face minstrel shows. The minstrel shows were not resepctful homages, but mockeries. There was no /intention/ to honor, but simply to stereotype and caractiture for a laugh and a profit. The two could not be further apart.
I’m really baffled by your animosity to the idea that people of various races, creeds and ethnicity can incoporate elements of each other’s culture into their own in a resepctful way. Why does there have to be an sinister ulterior motive? Not everything is tinged with the dreaded “r” word.
I also think you miss the entire part of Mardi Gras. (and who is her? You say “her melting pot culture.” Just wondering who you were referring to and no, that’s not the point of Mardi Gras. That’s just a byproduct of it.) It’s a pageant, a drama. Do people who portray Native Americans in movies and plays “disrespect” the culture of the Native Americans? (OK, well sometimes, but let’s base this on say Dances With Wolves) As Drury said, it’s coming from a place of resepct. I gather that according to your reasoning, my white children should not have a part in a Black History play at their school. WTF? My son’s hero is MLK. He has every right to participate in a school pageant honoring a great American hero, the color of his skin and his ethnic background nothwtithstanding. Why? The answer is he respects MLK and the black experience and want to HONOR those things.
Although there is a tad of superiority complex in some of the other replies to this thread, on the whole, IMHO based on your reponses, you came into this discussion with assumptions about a lot of things, with your own little superior dance going on. You appear unwilling, or unable, to distance yourself from those assumptions and seriously look at the historical and anecdotal evidence that contradicts your assumptions. That’s a shame -’cause with that sort of attitude – the parade will pass you by.
A.
p.s. My name is Ann, not Anna. :-)
How did that timestamp happen? Anway – I, Ann, wrote that last long post, not Leslie. (obviously :-) weird)
A.
Leslie- whites in a school did that and they got labled as racist. Its a double standerd. do as i say but dont do as i do. and they get away with it. I think god flushed the toilet on new orleans. now he needs to clean house on the rest of the country.
Bill — Thanks for the reference to the Backstreet Cultural Museum. I’ll be around for St. Joe’s night in hopes that some of the tribes are in town, and I’ll be able to swing by the museum as well.
There’s a great documentary on the Mardi Gras Indians that National Geographic did in 1988. There’s interviews with the Indians and of course great footage of them in costume. And good cultural info on how they came about and their respect and admiration for Am. Indians. It’s mentioned in this article along with other info that many folks here might want to read if they want to understand more about mardi gras indians.
http://www.louisianafolklife.org/LT/Articles_Essays/creole_art_mardi_indians.html
This has been going on for over 100 years. For those of you who think they’re playing dress-up Indian, blacks and American Indians inter-married/intermingled, so there are many blacks who are probably part Am. Indian, especially if they are Creole.
Mardi Gras Indians have had a big impact on the music of New Orleans, as Dr. John, has put it, “New Orleans music is Afro-Caribbean, Afro-Cuban, and Mardi Gras Indian.”
Here it comes Blacks will now say that they are the real first indians……
Here it comes Blacks will now say that they are the real first indians……
indians are a civil race unlike the black race. so please to try to say the blacks are now indians. Its a desgrace to the indian race to even think that blacks had anything to do with the indian race. The communnists wife died today!
The truth About Martin Luther King, Jr
the staff at the Martin Luther King, Jr. Papers Project discovered a lot of plagiarism in Martin Luther King’s writings and in a 1991 article in THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN HISTORY said that “plagiarism was a general pattern evident in nearly all of his academic writings” including his doctoral dissertation. King plagiarized that too by borrowing from a speech given to the Republican convention in 1952 by an African-American preacher named Archibald Carey, Jr.
Some of them say he gave Cary’s speech word-for-word. King did have a weakness for women and engaged in extramarital affairs. the FBI did document some sexual encounters involving Martin Luther King. His name wasn’t Martin Luther. It was Michael. It was decided Martin Luther had a more prominent ring to it, so he went by that. He never legally changed his name. To this day, he lived and died as Michael King. While working on his dissertation for his doctoral degree at Boston University, he heavily plagiarized from another author who had done research on a subject similar to King’s. As academic committee later found that over half of King’s work was plagiarized, yet would not revoke his doctrine. King was dead by this time, and the committee ruled that revoking the title would serve no purpose. It was also discovered that King’s famous I HAVE A DREAM speech was also not his own. He stole it from a sermon by Archibald Carey, a popular black preacher in the 1950′s. King was under FBI surveillance for several years (until he died) due to his ties with communist organizations throughout the country. King accepted money from the organizations to fund his movements. In return, King had to appoint communist leaders to run certain districts of his SCLC (Southern Christian Leadership Conference), who then could project their communist ideas to larger audiences. A federal judge in the 60′s ruled that the FBI files on King links to communism to remain top-secret until 2027. Senator Jesse Helms appealed to the Supreme Court in
1983 to release the files, so the correct bill in the Senate to create the Martin Luther King Federal Holiday could be abolished. He was denied. One of King’s closest friends, Rev. Ralph Abernathy, wrote a book in
1989 in which he talked about King’s obsession with white prostitutes. King would often use church donations to have drunken sex parties, where he would hire two to three white prostitutes, occasionally beating them brutally. This has also been reported by the FBI agents who monitored King. King was married with four children.
Martin Luther King Day. A day when this country will come to a screeching halt so we can have parades and memorials to honor this man, a man that most of the world views as a saint for his role in the civil rights movement. No other public holiday in the United States honors a single individual. Of all the great leaders in our Nation’s history-none of them have their own holiday. All of our great war heroes share Memorial Day. All of our great presidents share President’s Day. Yet king — a man who was a phony, a cheater, a traitor, and a sexual degenerate gets a day of his own.
I have a big problem with that.
I’m not trying to take anything away from African Americans, but I am trying to point out that
(1) the vast majority of people are sorely mistaken about Michael King and
(2) that reverse discrimination is blatantly obvious everywhere you look today.
Been watching the news lately? President Bush just got himself in some hot water when he spoke out against the University of Michigan for giving black applicants precedence over more qualified white applicants. Now Jesse Jackson, the NAACP, and other black leaders are trashing him, without a doubt planning how they can use this against his reelection campaign.
Think about that – Bush just made a stand for equal human rights, but low and behold — in this case they didn’t want to be treated as equals.
Make up your minds. I feel like I belong to one of the more abused ethnic groups in this country today. Can I do anything about it? Absolutely not. If I dare speak out I’ll get labeled a racist, harassed by the media. Subsequently lose my job, and never be able to show my face in public again.
But what I will do is send out this email to as many people I know in hopes that when you’re watching the evening news on Martin Luther King Day, and you see our politicians falling all over themselves to be filmed in a black church somewhere; you might stop and ask yourself “what about us?”
I have a big problem with historically inaccurate, inflamatory bullshit posted to gloat about the death of a courageous woman – on a thread about Mardi Gras!
A.
Here’s an article from an independent media website, “An indigenous perspective on Dr. MLK: ‘To the common observer, it would appear that the only person who struggled for the rights of minorities was Dr. King, the SCLC and his Euro-American supporters. This myth has gone on unchallenged for more than 40 years. And within that forty-year period, the legend has grown and been manipulated and distorted in such a fashion as to support the conventional mainstream party line in America and it’s attitudes towards race. This inaccuracy of selective historical interpretation is in dire need of re-examination. Truth be told, Dr. King was only one of many who fought bravely for freedom from racial bigotry and its institutional origins in Euro-American based racism. But Dr. King has been brought to the forefront of the American consciousness by the Euro-American power structure – So in accordance with this underlying principle, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a “good” Negro worthy of their respect and deserving of a holiday in his honor. The collective Euro-American “admiration” for Dr. King manifested in his favor precisely because he believed in, and defended the White Christian American way of life. Time and time again, Dr. King asserted his “Americaness”, and lauded the American way as an honorable way.’” http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2005/01/244042.shtml
I can’t agree that’s it’s gone unchallenged. There are a number of critical, but fair, biographies of King as well as numerous excellent works on other aspects of the civil rights movement which are not King-centric. BTW- King was virulently anti-Communist. He did however, believe in social, economic and political equality and equity, which I was brought up to believe was a very American perspective.
A.
p.s. Thanks for the link, Craig.
Rayna,
you really should just delete the whole thread. it’s embarrassing.
Rayna,
You must know that you touched a nerve by implying that our Mardi Gras Indians were ripping off Native Americans. Also, the fact that you became “naturally and uncontrollably upset” about something when you admitted that you didn’t know that much about it also could be the reason why you set so many of us off. It is unfortunate that your response to the first twelve comments was considerably less erudite than I would expect from a NOLA Metroblogger. For instance, you wrote this snide sentence in your reply: “Thanks a lot for all that help; you sure know how to make a new girl feel welcome.” You also wrote this: “I would have never guessed that you were all such inconsiderate assholes.” You also wrote this: “Whenever I need intelligent, helpful advice, I will look somewhere else.” Is it any wonder that we are upset at you? Your replies to the comments posted here constitute the same knee-jerk reactionary vitriol of which you are accusing the rest of us.
We want to like you. We love the NOLA Metblog, and I’m guessing you wouldn’t be on it unless you were smart and savvy enough to handle it. You must understand, though, that what you write can be taken ANY number of ways. Your original post was a little aggressive in places and if you write something like that, people will get upset. I understand your question and why you asked it. However, it’s the WAY you asked it, and the implications you made, that got me and so many others a little miffed.
Get away from the race bit – the Mardi Gras Indians are a part of the history of New O. Accept it… enjoy it… go to the Back Street Cultural Museum and learn about it. Sylvester and friends have done a marvelous job with the museum showing the traditions and costumes. I’m glad they all made it through Katrina and managed to save as much as they did. It’s part of New Orleans!
Bev, Just because it’s part of history, that does not make it right or moral. When a race of people tells you it pains them and that pain is ignored, that is the beginning of racism.
Addendum:
I spoke with the Rev. Goat Carson, the native american who helped found White Buffalo Day, and he told me the following things:
1)The relationship between the Native American Tribes and the Mardi Gras Indians is a close and fraternal one founded on love and respect.
2)His take on MG Indian history is that the escaped slaves took refuge with the only people around who would help them, the indigenous tribes of native americans. Many of them intermarried and existed in a state of harmony devoid of racial persecution.
3) White Buffalo Day (google it) is a celebration of both the Mardi Gras Indians and their reformed bond with native americans. This was betokened by the birth of the long awaited White Buffalo several years back.
To me this does not sound like a group ripping off another group’s culture. I would say that if that is a major concern to anyone they should contact the actual tribal leaders of the native american community and ask them for their perspective.
I would also suggest that the circular arguments on racism/ reverse racism (no such thing, it’s just simple racism pure and simple)/ and MLK be removed to a more appropriate forum.
I’ll refrain from making any other comments at this time as I do not wish to fan any more flames.
Wrong! “The Rev. Goat Carson” is a whiteman who did not grow up with the Cherokee people much less within the culturally Cherokee experience. For more information the widespread fake Indian’s, please visit the weblink provided below.
“Pseudo-medicine quacks are passing themselves off as Native American spiritual leaders. Native American spirituality has become a fad to many New Age non-Indians and their naivete is being exploited to the limit by plastic medicine people, much to the dismay of traditional elders. Practicing Native American spirituality out of the context of Native American culture diminishes the integrity of both.
Many of these people are white men and women who claim to be Indian spreading false rituals for profit. For the most part they have changed their names to Indian names to lend authenticity.
One way to tell if these people are legitimate is whether they go into the Native American communities they claim to be from and perform the same rituals.”
Spiritual Commodification and Misappropriation: What Native People Want You To Understand
http://www.sonomacountyfreepress.com/features/native.html
I googled the good reverend and discovered that he is featured on the audio version of Prison Writings of Leonard Peltier, who, last I checked, was a “bonafide” Native American. He (Goat) is also featured prominently on the American Comments Magazine site which appears to run by other “real” Native Americans. I do not know if the man is a “real” Native American – but other prominent Native Americans seem to accept him as one, or least as an ally and friend.
I am not poor, but I feel for the poor and work to alleviate their suffering. Likewise, I am not stricken with cancer, but I cry for those that are and contribute to research funds underwriting the search for a cure. I still hold that one does not need to experience a situation firsthand in order to empathize and sympathize with others, nor to celebrate and commenerate their culture.
A.
p.s. In reference to Loki’s post – the word “maroon” as in to strand or be stranded originates with the taking in of run-away slaves from the Portuguese and Spanish settlements by indigenous peoples of South America. It is derived from the Spanish words for “wild, savage” and “dark red” which certainly were words used by Europeans to describe the native population in the 17th and 18th centuries!
p.p.s. Bonafide – I’d like you to define “white man.” What, or who, qualifies as a “white?” Just curious.
“There’s only one race of people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Laurie
exactly my point, Laurie. :-)
I didn’t know that about maroon – I think it’s cool colour!
:D
Laurie
Get a grip little girl – you have to be a little girl to be so naive as to think that as the Native Americans embraced the slaves (who were of various mixed races such as French, Spanish, Dutch and every other European race that swooped through New Orleans during the slave days), they also coexisted, married and had children with these various Native American tribes that owned the land in and around the City of New Orleans. Those children were the beginnings of our Creole heritage. So when you ask why they choose to call themselves something they are not – remember this – they can’t change who they are – only celebrate it! As part Native American yourself, you of all people should understand that!!!!!
Creole was a term used to define the first filial generation of when the
French of the “New World”-us brought over a bunch of
“Old World” Spanish from Spain.
The children of these two cultures are Creole, every generation
after that chose and was not called Creole but are Creole descendents.
The Spanish were not brought over as slaves after all Spain
had owned Louisine’ first, it was a gesture of good will.
You get your facts right.
You seem to think that Creole means a mix of black and white those are mullato.
Sabines are a mix of Indian to European or a mix of Italion to French.
Not every one was a slave and many French were endentured servants!
Laurie
Laurie & Ann, You are both correct. There is only one race, the human race but that doesn’t diminish nor erase the fact that the United State’s will still be held accountable for high crimes: genocide and theft of indigenous lands.
To the Mardi Gras “Indians”: When your Indian blood has reached a microscopic drop (not to mention the fact that NONE of you are an enrolled member of any federally or state recognized tribe), at what point does a descendant stop claiming or practice being an American Indian? Has the Mardi Gras “Indians” stepped into the realm of identify theft, so far removed from reality of the experience of a real Native American? Your Black (or white) blood has bled out the Indian blood. THAT MEANS YOU ARE NO LONGER INDIAN!!!!!
“Fakers and phonies and frauds, egad: There ought to be a law
The pseudo-Indians should not be held harmless. They should be made to pay. There ought to be a law.
Non-Indians are pretending to be Indians for profit of some kind – for tenure, a job, a book contract, a record deal, a movie role. Look into the eyes of a pseudo-Indian and you see gold.
A new cause of action for Native nations should be more than a cease and desist order. Budding pseudo-Indians should know that there are potential consequences for identity theft.”
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096412438
Aren’t Indians in the same boat with hyphenation; they are Americans’ first?
The Celts have a greater claim on the “native” thing.
Archeologist still don’t who came here first!
Laurie
Bonafide- I must admit, I almost posted a lengthy response to you. Then, I realized you have either not read this entire thread, are deliberately ignoring the history of the Mardi Gras tribes, or possibly both. So, I will not reinvent the wheel. Instead, I will simply say that you are wrong on many counts – including the one about “there oughta be a law.” There is.
A.
p.s. Laurie – last research I saw about Celtic settlements was based on speculation with little to no hard evidience. Even if there were concrete sites that directly linked the early Celts to the continent, they would not predate the earliest Native American sites. Sites in north Louisiana – primarily Frenchman’s Bend but also the astounding mound complex at Poverty Point, though it’s a bit later- all put organized native societies in the area as early 3700 B.C. – about 5000 years ago. The Celt activity I am assuming you are referring to, if true, dates to 800 B.C. at the earliest, so the Celts lose by about 3000 years! :-) (I must admit, I think it’s grand that the Irish have something on the Brits. It makes my Irish eyes smile. Although, as we know, I can’t really say they’re Irish eyes; The American blood “bled out” the Irish long ago! ;-P )
What’s the latest on the Chinese, Polynesisiansians or other eastern peoples
gettin’ here first, boats were made out of wood and the bones would be completely gone by now?!
The Puppy is here!!!
Yep, I said a puppy!!!
She had a puppy in her first litter too.
My dog doesn’t have litters; all of the scientific knowledge is Wrong!
I was the first American!
I’ve been reeincarnated so many times that I can’t remember it or prove it yet.
My dog’s running for governor!
:D
Laurie
I totally think the island peoples were far more mobile than they are given credit for. They can make boats and settle Tahiti and Easter Island – but we’re supposed to believe they didn’t make it from Hawaii to California!?! puh-leeze! I also can accept the idea of the Japanese and Chinese getting here before the Spanish as well – they were fabulous seafarers and techogeeks before they shut themselves from the world. I also believe there was contact between the indigenous peoples of Central and South America and Africa. The whole Eurocentric presentation of history is a load of hooey!
If I was still registered in Louisiana, I’d vote for your dog – as long as it was yellow! :-)
A.
She is yellow!!
My dog has one vote for governor!
How about your turtle, and your hamster?
If the Australian Aborigines are 40,000 plus years old
whose to say they haven’t been here!
Any one have an Australian Aborigine star zodiac; I’m trying to
find out whether I’m a kangaroo or a boomarang?
Hey guys, drop the native part just say American,
watch their faces contort a li’l.
Laurie
Any island out there they needed a boat or a raft
or a dingy to get there in order to settle it in the the first place.
Laurie
Rayna-
Learn to spell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiricahua
I’m over here with my ear to the floor listening for buffalo.
Gizmo has world problems, complaining, howling and learning
how to bark or something close to it, whines mostly, beneath the bed room floo’!
Laurie
God is good he loves us even if we’re black or white,or a different color. He even gives us a second chance.Don’t blow your only chance to get into heaven .Your beautiful in gods eyes .If your lonely just pray, your not alone.
I just found this blog while trying to see if there was any news about the Mardi Gras Indians coming out this year. My usual routine MG morning is to walk up to the Wild Magnolia’s bar to watch chiefs come together and see who is prettiest. Then I head down later in the afternoon under the overpass by Claiborne to see the downtown MG Indians. Super Sunday always makes it onto my calendar as well.
I was glad to find the info about the Wild Magnolias (thanks Loki). I skimmed through the whole posting frenzy and have just one observation to add.
I was in Angola during their Carnival a few years ago (Angola, the country in Africa; not Angola, the Prison). I was floored when I saw a group in a parade that reminded me of the Mardi Gras Indians! They didn’t have full feathers and weren’t mimicing Native American tribes, but a few elements of the costumes were striking.
I would have to dig it up the photo a box at home, but I could do that if anyone was intersted.
well i am pretty much not suprised at all the comments being posted. and yet i have to agree with what was said about the people claiming to be native american, and yet when they say the tribe its always cherokee or sioux.There are many more tribes than just those. what i was told by my grandma who is 96 years old that the white men or whatever the race was would rape the indian women to get them pregnant. and in my ancestral background i have some either german or irish in the bloodline from my ancestors. to me it seems like people dont even know the facts at all, when it comes to native americans. and all native americans have bows & arrows and scalp the white people. may i ask a question for all you people to answer. Do you really know what a redskin really is?? redskin comes from when the white people selling the scalps of women and children and the “redskin part comes from having the skin being red from the blood, people i dont know what kind would buy these “souvenirs”. i really dont know about how you guys portray a native american to look like? Like the Washington Redskins mascot? i just hate the sterotype labels on native americans.
My name is summer whiterock, i am Shoshone-Pauite, i am seventeen years old and i live on a reservation. and i read up on stuff like this. i mean what else can i say??
Ya know,
If she is Native American, my wife is half, then she has a legitimate gripe. But, that’s where things are going these days. I know people don’t keep up much the smaller LA Universities, but, Northeastern is changing it’s mascot, “The Indians”, to god knows what. Now can you imagine the upset people there would be if they found “Tigers” or “Jaguars” offensive. Why wouldn’t the Mardi Gras Indians be next ones the chopping block? I think the only reason it took this long is that most people outsite LA. know nothing about them. What do y’all think?